Soliciting opinions about Solo 2 CSP classing

Discussion about Datsun 1500, 1600, and 2000 race cars.

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Gary Boone
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Soliciting opinions about Solo 2 CSP classing

Postby Gary Boone » Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:35 pm

It seems to me the CSP Datsun roadster is losing it's competitive edge in CSP at a National and Tour level. If you review the results over the last 5 (or more) years, a Datsun roadster has not finished in the upper half of CSP at Nationals. At most Tour events they are usually not very close to winning, even the Harveys. Elliot was in the lower half of the CSP class in his last try at Nationals with his 5 time National Championship roadster.

The reason I ask for opinions is to get a reality check to decide whether it might be worthwhile to campaign the Solo Board to reclassify. I think DSP is the right place. There's a new Board member in our region who I think would lend a listening ear.

Please let me know what you think. :?:

NomadTrash
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Postby NomadTrash » Thu Apr 29, 2004 7:26 pm

If I remember correctly the Harvey's had the wrong tires the last time they went to nationals with the roadster. I think it was really cold that year and they had Florida compound tires. I think that the SEB would be hard to persuade if Bill and Elliot still own a roadster. They won so many times.
Andy Cost

1968 Datsun Roadster "Bucephalus"
E-Mod 68

Bolt on modification? I used some bolts.

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Gary Boone
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Postby Gary Boone » Thu Apr 29, 2004 10:52 pm

Tell me, I've never heard of a Florida compound tire. What exactly is a Forida compound? Does Hoosier make a different compound for different states?

NomadTrash
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Postby NomadTrash » Fri Apr 30, 2004 6:43 am

It is a Hoosier F2SO3. The F stands for Florida. There is also a W2SO3 for Wyoming.

Honestly, I think they had Kumhos and the comtetition were running Hoosiers. The kumhos are pretty fast when it is hot outside but don't do as well when it is really cold. The Hoosiers were a better choice for the cold conditions in Topeka.
Andy Cost



1968 Datsun Roadster "Bucephalus"

E-Mod 68



Bolt on modification? I used some bolts.



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Oilleak
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Postby Oilleak » Mon May 03, 2004 9:26 am

Not to get too far off the subject but the Harvey's have never been happy with the radial tire offerings. I think part of the problem is width as they used to run a 245-15 in the old bias ply hoosier. Nobody makes that size anymore. The big problem at nationals is the surface. Both Bill and Elliot told me they won't bother going back to Forbes feild unless the whole thing gets repaved.
Bill was just over 4.5 seconds back from Tim Aro at the Ft. Myers tour though and the surface there is quite good. Part of the problem was that he was on older victoracers but that doesn't explain it all. Part of it may well be that he hadn't raced in at least 4 months prior to the tour (that I'm aware of) and hadn't had the Roadster out for about 8 month. From what I've seen so far, I think the real issue is money though. Folks at the top end of CSP Nationally have spent a ton of money tuning there cars. The McGeorge MR2 is owned by a the son of the Toyota dealer. They have a lot of development time and a lot of money in that car. They had a ton of money in the trailer and equipment they brought down to Florida with them. We're talking about enough money that I think I'm doing something wrong. I don't know how you can spend that much on your hobby and still pay the bills.
I don't want to shoot the idea of re-classing the car down - I think it'd be great. I also think that no-one has put Fuel Injection on a roadster or used anything but the various combinations of stock or nismo springs. I've not heard of one autocrossed with anthing other than a typical tube header. We all know how well the U20 responds to opening up the exhaust. There are a number of things that can be done to rear suspension under the rules (I think) that no-one's played around with very much. Bottom line, there's too many things the SEB can point to and say that the car hasn't been developed to the level of the class.
I was talking to Elliot yesterday about Tom Elam's RX3 and he said that you can make over 200HP at the flywheel with a well tuned fuel injected 13B (takes a lot of dyno time $$$). I'm still not sure you can do that with stock intake ports but I got the feeling from Elliot that he wouldn't waste his money protesting Elam's engine. On one hand, that sounds like an argument to re-class the car but on the other, you can't make that kind of power with out a lot of dyno time. I'm not at the level (driving skill) to worry about doing it but how many of us have dyno tuned our carbs much less an FI set up. maybe there's still a fair bit of speed to be had from a roadster. I don't think the SEB would think about re-classing the car until someone tries FI and some more custom suspension.
I do think that if the Vintage class were to become a reality, that the roadster would be the car to have. Unfortunately I haven't heard anything about it since it was proposed in GRM.
Brian Hollands
69 2000
Tampa, FL

Ponder
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Postby Ponder » Tue May 04, 2004 9:10 am

I know I should wait until I have my rulebook in front of me. But You can put a 13B in an RX-3? :shock: The 13B was the second generation RX-7's motor, right? About 1985. (If I'm wrong about that, ignore the rest of this rant.) That would mean that the RX-3 and the 2nd gen RX-7 would be on the same line in the Street Prepared listings. That would almost be like the 300ZX and the 350Z etc being listed with the Roadsters.

There was a guy (Don Miller?) who raced a Roadster with a 300Z twin turbo crammed into it at Nationals in E mod in 2002. Didn't finish too well. Maybe I'll go back and see how he would have done in CSP. I doubt that would be reasonable though. I suppose there are other considerations than nameplate.
I drank what? - Socrates

Ponder
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Postby Ponder » Tue May 04, 2004 9:20 am

I just went over to the moutons site and the RX-3 and the RX-7 are listed on separate lines. So you can't (as I understand it) update/backdate across those models. But maybe be I over-interpreted Brian's post to mean the Elam has a 13B in his Rx-3 when he didn't mean to say that. There was a profile of Elam in a recent issue of Sportscar and I don't remember what it said about his engine.
I drank what? - Socrates

Oilleak
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Postby Oilleak » Tue May 04, 2004 9:22 am

The RX3, RX3SP, and 808 Mizner are all on the same line. I don't know anything about the 808 but I'm pretty sure the RX3SP was a 13B. The 13B was first available about 1974 as a 4 port. The 13B from the RX7 was first availble in the 84-85 GSL-SE and was a 6 port. The 4 ports have more potential. It's legal - If it wasn't, Elam wouldn't have 3 national titles.
Brian Hollands
69 2000
Tampa, FL

Ponder
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Location: Southern Indiana

Postby Ponder » Tue May 04, 2004 10:02 am

Oops. I was wondering if my limited knowledge of the Mazda engine designations was the crux of my misunderstanding. There's a guy in our regions who runs a 1st gen RX-7 in CSP with a 13B motor from a mid 80's 2nd gen in it. I guess that's where my thouhgt that a 13B must have been new in the mid 80's came from.

I take it that the road race guys aren't allowed to fuel inject their motors? I know there was a discussion somewhere about adding FI to a roadster engine, but I'm not sure where it was or what became of it. I can't reach the 311s site from work anymore. I think that's where the mention of it was. The Bob Sharp manual has the 2.0 liter being able to be pumped up to 180hp range. But, I think some of the mods in doing that wouldn't be legal in CSP. Rotational parts balancing, I don't believe is legal, for instance.

Steve
I drank what? - Socrates

Chris Coker
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Postby Chris Coker » Tue May 04, 2004 10:15 am

Yep, us road race guys are restricted to carbs. In GP, we have to use 1.5" SUs, and only within the last couple of years were allowed to use something other than a Hitachi SU. Granted, you can do a lot of modification to the internals, but it's still an SU.

The 2L cars in E Prod use Solex carbs, if I remember correctly.

A 2L engine can defintely make 180 hp on carbs. Keep in mind the Bob Sharp manual, while full of good info, isn't exactly "state of the art" any more. I've heard of 2L engines making over 200 hp in race trim, but it seems like they get pretty fragile beyond that.
Chris C.

Oilleak
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Postby Oilleak » Tue May 04, 2004 11:13 am

Trying to get us back on topic - I think the issue is development. I know more power can be had from the U20 under the SP rules (which allows essentially no internal mods for anyone reading this that doesn't know the rule set). I just don't know how much more.
Elliot mentioned that he'd talked to SEB about reclassing the 1600 in FSP which makes sence as it can't compete with a 2000 head to head. Doing so may make the 1600 able to compete in SP and would render the 2000 uncompetitve in CSP as we'd lose the 4.11 gear set. That may make for an argument to reclass the 2000 in DSP. Personally, I'm not sure I want to lose the 4.11.
With carefully tuned manifolding and FI, might we be able to see 150HP at the wheels? 130 is doable with solex's so I think it's a possibility.
Brian Hollands
69 2000
Tampa, FL

Mike Poorboy
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Postby Mike Poorboy » Thu May 06, 2004 8:42 am

Hey Gary,
As you know SCCA has been trying to realign some of the classes lately.
No, I don't think the Roadster in the 200 Solex trim belongs in CSP anymore.
technology has caught up with it awhile ago . I would suggest getting as many Roadster owners as possible to petition the baord to have it moved.
The Z guys are trying to get the 240 moved to DSP with the rest of the
6 cylinder rear wheel drive cars. It doesn't belong in BSP with 336 HP
M3's and Corvettes . And they just added the S2000, Evo 8 and STI to BSP.

There is no way that a 2 liter can make 200 Hp in SP trim. It takes alot to get
the car over 200HP in full race trim.

Mike


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